Le 07 décembre 2020 à 15:13:39 Vlad-Tepes27 a écrit :
Et après ça se fout de la gueule des religieux.https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2020/47/4/1605746723-ronaldotrianglel.png
Y a beaucoup de Musulmans sur ce forum
Le 23 décembre 2020 à 05:12:46 AttaLit a écrit :
Ca vaut le coup ?
Oui mais passe les hors-sujets
As a character, Madara is weird but in a good way.
M.Kishimoto plays with the concept of identity quite a bit in the series. Antagonist wise, I think the most notable examples are Obito and Nagato but Madara applies too. Until he’s revived, we have no idea what his true character is. Everything about him is just secondhand information. While what’s seen in the flashbacks before his arrival is true, the dialogue over those flashbacks isn’t Madara’s.
He ends up being displaced in his own history.
Also, by the time the real one comes, he’s dead. That’s cool.
Madara can be seen as Konoha’s haunting. How he’s dealt with can symbolize the sanitization of its past, of how its denial impacts its future. Alternatively, it can be a statement on how we should discard the past and start anew.
Madara exists in limbo : He is caught between life and death. Yet, again, he’s not alive. He’s a relic of the past that believes he can dictate the future. The characters insist that’s not the case. For Hashirama, everything is for the sake of the future generation. However, it can’t be one generations burden to bear everything on itself. The past can’t be taken too seriously because things will change. The burden will shift naturally.
Hashirama : We were too hasty... We didn’t need to fulfill our dreams ourselves. It was more important to cultivate those who’d come after us.
(C. 691)
Then Hashirama mentions drinking as buddies because they’re dead. In Naruto, the dead don’t seem to have conflict themselves. They act out their conflict in the living. It’s never direct. Madara broke that balance.
If we take what the characters say seriously, Madara is wrong but Madara proves how much say the past has.
So, Madara embodies a lot of contradictions. We see this in his personality. He wants peace but he’s a blood knight. He’s forward thinking but gets fixated on his past and present. He’s confrontational but he’s shrouded in mystery and deceit. He’s so preoccupied with human existence but he’s alone. He despises abstractions but he wants people to live out their lives in a dream. He’s a pessimist but he’s resurrected because an ideal.
It’s beautiful. I don’t have any complaints.
To Madara, the manifestation is truth. He perceives universalities and commonalities but he singles out one group or individual over the other. He has a hierarchy of value. As a kid, Madara chose his clan above everything. He put the clan above his own ideals.
That’s not selfish of him. Selfish, for him, would be to have his clan die for the sake of potential, for an abstraction. To hold that against him is to state having an identity and valuing it is wrong.
A blended identity, such as Konoha, causes the same the same type of selfishness and horror that being 'divided' does. It’s a different type of division and the subdivisions aren’t reconciled. They’re valued when they don’t conflict with the interests of the state. When they’re valued, it’s on the basis of tradition which Konoha uses to cite its superiority. Yet, it spurns Uchiha for the same thing. The 'good' are those who are absorbed. It, too, is riddled with contradictions. Madara and Konoha perceive evil to be is an inherent part of the system but they also believe it’s manufactured. They think it can be controlled. Also, their good intentions bring about all kinds of shit.
Madara refused to harmonize with a perceived evil and he did so by becoming a necessary evil. To meet his goals, he lived a life of isolation. Yet, he despised the contradictions of his reality. These contradictions are part of humanity, Madara is one that spent most of his life rejecting humanity, including his own. So, Konoha is superior because it spurns the ideal and grapples with its humanity.
Is that satisfying ? I don’t know. It’s incredibly well-written, though.
I want to add that Madara isn’t given importance by the virtue of being attached to the lore. This is how he differs from Kaguya. Madara is rounded and dynamic. He has characterization that goes beyond his design or goals. He engages with the other characters in meaningful ways. He adds meaning to the other characters.
You would write an essay on how he relates to Uchiha. You could write so much about how his and Hashirama’s relationship impacted Konoha. So many fans do. I think he has a lot of similarities with Naruto, too.
His dialogue is decent. His backstory is engaging. Also, despite the tragedy he brings, he adds a lot of humor. I think I struggle to find humor in the team because of the unaddressed tragedy. They rarely make me laugh. Madara, as well Hashirama, does that so well. His worth isn’t dependent on whether he wins or loses.
On top of that, he adds to many themes. Bonds. Reconciliation with the past. Generational inheritance. The tragedy of war. Will power. Overcoming obstacles.
Madara adds another layer : Futility.
It’s because of this I have to say that while Madara serves a great contrast, that while he definitely is significant, he’s not the best antagonist or, rather, he’s as effective as an antagonist in Naruto can be.
As an antagonist, Madara is an obstacle to overcome. He needs to be overcome for the story can reach a conclusion but he’s not a challenge. A good antagonist poses a challenge. To be clear, Madara is an amazing fighter. I’m not saying he isn’t powerful. I’m saying it wouldn’t matter if he had all the power in the verse.
By the time Madara enters the story as himself, the characters have solidified their positions. There isn’t any temptation. He aggravates them. They disagree with him but he’s not pressing them to look into themselves. They’re opposed to each other. They’re in each other’s way but they’re not a challenge. Not really.
When we examine the story’s structure, this makes sense. Madara’s a test, he’s not the lesson.
They’ve did all this before. They’ve been fighting this fight since the beginning.
Naruto isn’t meant to tackle anything Madara mentions. He’s just trying to beat the problem into submission. Naruto has tackled this problem before. He’s chosen Konoha. He’s chosen unity. Again, this is test of whether or not he’ll succeed.
It appears he does fight Madara on a number issues but only on the surface. Madara says to fuck friendship ? Well, Naruto’s got friendship in spades and, not only that, but he’s going to die for his friends. Madara’s tired of the system ? Well, Naruto loves the system and he’s going to fight for it. Madara says dealing with reality leads to evil ? Naruto isn’t going to live a lie. He’s going to face reality with a smile on his face.
Why ?
Why should I care if Naruto succeeds or not ? Because Madara is wrong ? Because being wrong means he should lose ? His loss says something about his character. It says how he’s valued in Konoha but not much else.
What are the stakes ? The stakes are dependent on the value, right ? What if I questioned that ?
To me, Madara seems to be an antagonist of futility. To fight Madara is to battle this idea. They’re just grappling with reality, so... Is there a win ?
They’re in a stratocracy. The only thing that has been won is power. It says there’s more but shouldn’t there be progress ? We’re promised that, but did we really see any of that ? Do I truly think that if they lost the war, they would’ve lost something ? Does the process matter more than the end result ? Is the end result even a thing ? Is a win only a win if it takes place in reality ?
Naruto wins life, I guess but he’s not winning. Same goes for Konoha. Konoha gets to perpetuate its existence in its perceived reality.
There’s a lot of meaning behind this fight, but does it matter ? I don’t know if it does, even for Madara’s character and that’s cool.
Especially when we tie to Madara’s unyielding personality.
Also, Naruto can’t change Madara. Madara wasn’t convinced by Hashirama. He’s been through this before.
We see others using similar ploys like Tsunade. Madara gets served all the best speeches. He sees their resolve and love for their villages and the shinobi way but Madara mocks their ideals.
An appeal to reality ? Yeah, he’s been around the block, sonny. Also, did you forget ? To live in reality is to suffer.
Appeal to the desire to perpetuate life ? His existence is an affront to life and death.
He’s concerned more with reality, which is self-evident. What could Naruto add ?
He can’t. Madara is committed in a way most characters aren’t.
Some may point out his last moments but I don’t perceive that has a win for Konoha or Hashirama. Even in his dying moments, Madara is more concerned with the reality of the situation than anything else.
Madara : So simplistic as usual. You were always optimistic but perhaps that is the correct way. My dream was squashed but yours is still relevant.
He’s basically saying the fact that something exists means it’s right.
Madara loses everything to come to this conclusion. He’s just out of options.
Wanting to be friends again doesn’t erase the validity of Madara’s concerns. What’s correct still has the same effects as what’s wrong. There’s value in dealing with that, I wouldn’t say there’s a moral weigh to it as the characters seem to think. And, because of that, it’s unsatisfying to me.
That’s just what antagonists do in Naruto but another way to look at Madara is that he didn’t get nerfed because he was too overpowerful. He got nerfed because he couldn’t be beaten. He can’t be talked down. Even if he was physical defeated, he couldn’t be reasoned with. Madara, for all his flaws, wouldn’t lose. He had too much say. He’d created the context, who is Naruto to say he’s wrong ?
So, Kaguya exists. Like many, I don’t think Madara was made to build Kaguya up. I think she was made because the conflict needed to center around something more concrete. She takes the lore away from Madara because going from Madara to Naruto Gaiden or Boruto is way too cynical. She cushions the blow. She takes it away from reality and onto power. It raises its own issues but it’s a better issue to tackle.
The heroes needed a clear win. Kaguya provides that. Intentional or not, it’s a saving throw if one values the sense of achievement over other aspects of the story and many of the fans do, I think.
Kaguya just wants to cultivate chakra. If she has other motivations, they’re not elaborated on for this reason. Further proof : The anime can’t be used as a manga supplement.
Also, by displacing Madara as the antagonist, Madara gets to act as proof that rebelling is futile, that it’s better to work within the system than go against it. After all, Madara isn’t the true master of fate. He’s not savior or destroyer.
That’s all I got.
TLDR : Madara is a great character. I think he’s one of the better written ones. As the antagonist, he blows my mind. Not in a good way but that’s just me being biased.
Source : Tumblr
Le 23 décembre 2020 à 01:27:46 Zinzolinx87 a écrit :
il s'impose sur le reste de l'Europehttps://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2020/51/6/1608408242-1601275524-golemselection-ents.png
Qu'il s'impose déjà sur son propre pays
Le 22 décembre 2020 à 19:45:16 Haddockent a écrit :
Sasuke si souvent critiqué pour son côté emo prend enfin une bonne allure selon moi, son évolution familiale lui permet d'avoir un côté plus humain qui se développe d'épisodes en épisodes et rend enfin le personnage intéressant et plus coincé dans sa vengeance, trop souvent critiquée par les fans
En quoi se soumettre au village qui a commis un génocide sur son clan comme un chien lui donne une bonne allure ?
Si tu lisais le manga, tu verrais qu'il a l'air complètement misérable et donne l'impression qu'il est prêt à se suicider à chaque case où il apparaît.